Michael Van Clarke & Nicky Clarke: How It All Began

In this very first episode, Michael Van Clarke and Nicky Clarke look back on the early years that led them into entrepreneurship, business and hairdressing. 

From strict school uniforms and family expectations to the allure of Bowie, 70s fashion, and chance opportunities, they explore the moments that sparked their creativity and set the foundation for their 50+ year long careers.

A nostalgic, honest, and inspiring conversation for anyone who loves stories of hairdressing history, self-discovery, and the golden days of London's hair scene.

Follow Michael Van Clarke: @mvanclarke

Follow Nicky Clarke: @nickyclarkeuk

Credits:

Producers: Michael Van Clarke, Louise Ortelli, Louise Oakley & Ben Lifton

Editor: Ben Lifton from Big Little Content

Production Coordinator: TYX Studios

Sound Engineer: TYX Studios

Credits:

Producers: Michael Van Clarke, Louise Ortelli, Louise Oakley & Ben Lifton

Editor: Ben Lifton from Big Little Content

Production Coordinator: TYX Studios

Sound Engineer: TYX Studios

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Royalty, film stars, the music industry. Facing the person who used to try and beat me up anyway, Vidal's famous line was that we freed women from the tyranny of the hood dryer. Then suddenly it's at the Albert Hall. Cleantel, I mean, totally star-studded. I did come first in maths once. Nobody was more surprised than me. Admin error. You always had a more arty, creative expression. I think he lasted a week. A week. What was the question again? Oh, Welcome to our podcast with me, Michael Van Clark. And me, Nicky Clark. So Nicky, you're 51 years now in the industry. Yeah, 50 would have been a nice rounder. Yeah, but you're still here. Still here, yeah. And that's across six decades from 74... Yeah, you know, it is actually. And actually kind of each of those decades have got their own kind of thing about it, but it doesn't feel that long. I mean, so what are we, four years? You started four years ahead. Yeah. But what was the seed that started the idea of hairdressing for you? Do you know what? I mean, I think the thing is, and we know because obviously we were at similar schools, but coming from... I'm going off on a tangent. I was in the A-stream, remember? No, but that's what I was about to say. You know, coming from Surrey Square, where there was me and... three other people, one guy and two, I remember all their names. And we were considered to be, I think it's so weird to think this now, but the really, really bright ones. You know, there was a guy called Paul Lowe's, a girl called Kay Compton, and a girl called Anita Kennedy. Of course, I've never seen any of them, you know, since. But we were considered the four. And then, of course, you end up at a grammar school and I'm in the C-stream. They put me in the C-stream. So that already is a bit of a kind of a shock. Hold on a minute. I'm like... You know, then you realize you're kind of just the best out of a, you know, probably a working class area. Now, admittedly, I did work my way up to the B-stream. But of course, it wasn't quite, you know, it wasn't like just going into the A-stream. Maybe it was an admin mistake. Maybe it was. But going back to the question as to why, I suppose the thing is, is that that whole thing started it off as... You know, academia is never going to be my biggest thing. Although I did come first in maths once. Nobody was more surprised than me. Trust me. But I think, you know, you lean towards an artistic... bent really and I don't know why I don't know why you know I'd be at Linda's there was that girl Christine who used to come home and do her hair and I thought maybe hairdressing I think I'd I think I'd read about Warren at that time first Warren Beatty because that was what 73 73 shampoo I mean you always had a more arty creative expression yeah I think if any any of my creativity was more practical at that stage yeah a bit like dad Yeah, yeah. Making stuff. You know, I mean, obviously, as we get older, we think so much in terms of our family. It's so diverse, you know. I mean, you know, you've got Linda and, you know, Artie, slightly away from the fairies, but Artie. Norma, you know, very academic. You always feel different. I mean, when you've got a... you know, a Greek mother, even everything, even from food, you know, to, you know, being dressed in a certain way, you know, was always being dictated, you know, by, you know, the way she would, you know, put us in. I mean, I can certainly remember the trauma of knowing, having to go to, you didn't experience this, going to, you know, Tennyson's grammar school and being told that of course you had to wear short trousers I remember that I mean and you know, I get there and half the class is in long trousers. And of course, me saying to mum, well, I mean, I need another pair of long trousers. What do you mean? I paid four pounds. And four pounds in 1969 was quite a lot of money then. I mean, you know, Georgia Asda wasn't around then. And, you know, it's like, and I know you've said it before, those coats, those Beau Bramall coats. I mean, it was like running the gauntlet back in, back in Yolkent Road. I mean, these little, you know, grammar school kids coming back. And you get beaten up for wearing those blazers. Well, you probably It would actually, you know, so it's probably, but you know, you talk about blazers. I mean, I can remember just, you know, having the tie reordered, the blazer made, you know, they had a go, they'd sent me home because it covered the badge, you know, because I had first person to wear flares in the, still wearing flares, in the school. I mean, it was just like, that was what you did, made the tie out of padded silk. So it was like a big old knot, you know. At what age? At school. Don't you remember? The school was in... So you teased me for wearing a cravat at eight. Very true, but I wasn't eight. And yet you were puffing up your tie with padding. Michael, you know, wearing a... He says it when he's got... Wearing a cravat looking like you were kind of Lord of the Manor at eight. There are pictures to prove this. It's slightly different than being kind of, you know, wearing a pair of flares and, you know, all of that. But it was Paul. You know, and you probably are not even aware of this, but... You're not allowed to wear black because mum wouldn't buy any of that. Paul bought me my first black Ben Sherman shirt, collar size 13 and a half. So mum didn't let you wear black because of her parents. Because it was associated with death. Yeah, associated with death. Weren't allowed to wear black. So it was all that. So, you know, weren't allowed to do that. It was all the Greek women. They stay in black for the rest of their lives. The rest of their lives. I mean. Or polka dots. I think Yaya had polka dots. That's Greek for grandmother, by the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Greek for grandmother. Greek for grandmother. Yeah, so what was the question again? I was slightly interested. Yeah, why? I don't know, really. Where did it come to you? Because you were very into David Bowie. You were very into art and, in fact, creativity. But, I mean, other than Dad having a... a kit where we bought out the Daily Mail ads. Daily Mirror. Daily Mirror, yeah. So he'd cut our hair. Other than that, and we thought he was a barber in the army, which he wasn't. Which he wasn't, I know. Where did the hairdressing come? I don't know, really. I think it was just, I don't actually know. And I think back to that time, and I think it was just a kind of, why not? Also, you have to remember that Tennyson's was trying to upgrade itself. So I barely had two O-levels. I think I had one and a half. One of them, I must say, I still think I was cheated out of. Admin error. No, but you say that. You can laugh now, but actually, how can you get a pass in French and German, which takes up for 25%, and then be in the top three at French and yet still fail? I've already got 25% of it. You only need 49 for a pass. How does that work? Did you turn up for the exam? I did. I took the exam. Listen, I mean, it's actually, it doesn't matter now. But of course, they made the rule. You see, you wouldn't know any of this. They made the new rule. You had to have four O levels to stay. To stay on. To stay on. And they were being picky about that. So the thought of actually- I remember that. I remember that to stay on. So the thought of staying in the fifth form, again, facing the person that used to try and beat me up anyway, that wasn't going down well. It wasn't going down well. So I was there. But it wasn't just- knowing that the world of hairdressing existed in a different way, because we were working-class kids. There was no information about careers, and yet you went from the back streets of Yolkent Road to Leonard in Mayfair, the most premium salon. Because Kristen, who was doing... Linda and Eddie's, she said to me, I mean, I went to the careers office and mentioned the word hairdresser. I mean, he jumped on it because he thought, well, this is an idea. I mean, what was his name? I can't remember. Smoked pipe, cloudy, you know. Hopkins. Hopkins. Why would you remember that? He was a Latin teacher. He was the Latin teacher. Why would you remember that? Mr. Hopkins. Yeah, Mr. Hopkins. So I said, what do you want to do? I have no idea. And I just went, maybe a hairdresser. But he just jumped on it and pulled out some crusty old you know, college or something. And it was Christine that said, don't go to a college, go to, um, the best hairdressers around, start at the bottom. She gave me two. One was the Cadogan Club, which was in a Sloan, in Sloan Street, which was a very ladies who lunch place. And the other one was Leonard. So I went to the interview of, um, The Cadogan Club. And, you know, it was just one of those things. And I very, now I look back, if somebody did that to me in an interview, I wouldn't be too pleased, but he offered me the job there and then. And I said, thank you, but I'd quite like to go to my other interview first. I mean, can you imagine saying that to, that didn't go down well. And I went to Leonard and I don't know why. I remembered what I was wearing totally. And I just, I mean, you never went, did you? I never went inside. Oh my God. It was just, I mean, just, just the door next to the American embassy. So you, you know, a reception that was downstairs with a boutique. I mean, it was, you know, 74 now and just oozed kind of the thing. And it was Trevor, the guy that interviewed me and didn't give me the job. He said, we'll let you know. I said, okay, what does that mean? Let you know. You imagine dad, I mean, it was bad enough I was saying I was going into hairdressing. That went down a bunch, you know, with all, you know, all those kind of dodgy characters in there. So I went to Linda's and sat there for a while. They rang, I think, three weeks later. I mean, you know, trying to be at Linda's for three weeks on and off and avoid dad was not ideal. I didn't know that. Yeah. So I didn't want the one. I wanted the Leonard one because I just knew that was, I don't know, why would a 17-year-old know? So what time of year is that? You've had your exam results. You've left. Yeah, September. So you basically just, you finished and you're trying to get a job. I'm trying to get a job. Yeah. I mean, that was it. So you would have been off school for three months by then. Do you know what? It must have been.

UNKNOWN: 10:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 10:48

Yeah. I mean, I don't remember. They might have said start in three weeks. I don't remember. But I remember I got the call. It was almost a month of waiting. I mean, I would have probably had to have gone somewhere else. I don't know. I didn't know anything about hairdressing. I didn't know. I mean, I didn't know what it was. I just knew that was a kind of... And that's the thing. When you start somewhere... as you just pointed out a minute ago, we didn't have, you know, the internet. And so I didn't know one end of a comb from another, you know, it was, I didn't have the social ability to know what to do. I remember when somebody gave me a tip once, I went, oh, don't worry, no, it's all right. You know, it was to feed a meter, you know, and I don't know, it was probably 10p or something, but you know, bigger in those days, but you don't know, you don't know what you're doing. But I think in some ways, vanity drives you on because you just don't want to look like an idiot. Cleantel, I mean, totally star-studded. Unbelievable. Royalty, film stars, the music industry. Everybody. I mean, you know, I mean, if you go back now, and you know this, is that, you know, you have a dynasty that is pretty much Lennart and Vidal, you know, because you have a movement. I mean, ironically, actually, you know, Leonard did actually work for Vidal, but it wasn't anything to do with other than the fact that he had this clientele, you know, you know, when Vidal talks about, you know, that revolution that was between 63 and 66, really, you know, that revolution. you know, it came from his Bauerhaus modernist feelings. You know, people like Kwan, Paco Rabanne, you know, Pierre Cardin, all those people that were modernists at that time. Clean, simple lines. Yeah, all of that. I mean, he wanted a, you know, a sort of a way that how he could do hair, you know, in that way. And of course it was incredible what, you know, what he did. But actually a relatively short period when people think of the sixties, they, It's split very much. Because the hippie movement came in soon after. Summer of 66. Summer of 66. I mean, that's really not, you know, but lovely man. You know, I got to know him in the last four years of his life, actually. We had dinner, yours several times, and he came to the charity board that we did. Yes, of course, yeah. That's right. Yeah, so, but an amazing, amazing movement. You can look back now and see how those things, you know, throughout the 20th century, you know, they've all had their kind of, you know, their periods, and it's easier to look back there. But it is funny, you know, when you think of Vidal, this incredible influence It was only about three or four years. You say that, but it endured through to the 70s. Tony and Guy took over that mantle, really, and much of the training and adapted it for the next generation. Well, I mean, the thing is, is that the people that, and this is no disrespect to them, but the people there, the people like Mark Hazel, they're such purists that they really didn't want to be anything other than what his whole ethos was. And of course, actually, you know, as you just pointed out, you know, the Tony and Guy just went, I'm going to take a bit of that. I'm just going to commercialize it. And, you know, became this billion dollar company. You know, it's incredible. We really should have been Medow, I suppose, but they were just such purists about what they did. But you can bring it down fundamentally to even just in terms of the way hair reacts because everything they did came from the crown down. You couldn't defy gravity. That was the whole issue. Think about it. Everything couldn't defy gravity. It's only when you can then defy gravity by the products that you're using that it has something else. So their whole thing was all about, you know, I mean, Vidal's famous line was that we freed women from the tyranny of the hood dryer. You know, but actually what he, also did was made it, you know, the irony is that you've got, you know, a Denman brush being kind of like, you know, taking the life out to make it into the shape that he wanted. Great if you got straight hair. But there is an irony that the first, I think the first model on the, if I'm not mistaken, on the five point cut is Grace Coddington. With wavy red hair. The fizziest, curliest hair you've ever seen in your life. So it's a bit rich, going about a hairdryer, when you probably, you know, it's like one of those. I wonder what that was like when it was a hairdryer. Exactly. So that's what I'm saying. It's just this. And he did make me laugh, though. I mean, actually, it was that evening, I think we were there, that I did say to him that, you know, because he started going, I think he'd had a drink and he just started going off on, you know, we looked at the woman's face and it's this, you know, Give it a rest, Vidal. You created this incredible, you know, way of working. Don't try and pretend it was, you just went like that and plunked it on different heads. You know, there was just, that was the look and you went in and got that look. And that was the secret to its success and the way it went around the world. And it was also the reason that it, It failed ultimately because it wasn't adaptable. It's not. And if you make rules like that, you know, the more rules you make for yourself, I mean, you know, you see it with that, you see it with things like molten brown and, you know, finger dry and everything and, you know, you end up, the reason that Vidal's actually went on longer than it did is because it's very easy to teach. Yes. Very easy to teach. Quick to teach, quick to execute. Yeah, in the Far East it's, you know, and it's physically easier to work with wet hair than it is to work with Jaya physically. So, you know, you have all of that. But that must have been kind of an odd one when you're seeing four years later having done all of your academic stuff. So, you know, I can throw the question back. What made you want to do it? I think I just got to the point that... I'd had enough of books for a while, as much as I love books. I'd had enough of study. And when you asked me to come and film, or you and John asked me to come and film that documentary at the Albert Hall. I think documentary is a bit, pushing it a bit. It was a 30 minute documentary on the before, during and after of the World Hairdressing Congress. Yeah, it's true. 1978. Yeah, it's true. That was January. And I should have been revising hard for my A-levels. But I was actually just really taken by the whole atmosphere of everything. Why did we only have one cameraman? Was it the film was so expensive? Yeah, that was my job, wasn't it? No, but... I seem to remember that was, because it's a great piece of film when I look at it, for us to keep, but I always felt like I needed another cameraman somewhere, a bit closer maybe. Yeah, probably, but there was just me. Yeah, there was just you, yeah. And it wasn't in the day of video and everything, it was proper film. It was good. It was proper film. And yeah, it was expensive in those days. And you had to wait three weeks for it to be processed to see what you'd done. I was still at school. I was 17. And I just remember suddenly you've got that Blonde on Blonde, which was Jilly... Julie Johnson and Nina Carter. And it was like all the photographers just went mad. Because they were famous page three girls. Yeah, they were page three girls. They came on with nothing on virtually. And there was this explosion of light where all these photographers just went mad and sort of swarmed the stage taking pictures. There was all of that. There was the other models as well that were there. There was Lulu's choreographer, Dougie Squires. doing it all who was you know camping it all up but he was very funny because he was doing he did Lou's Saturday night show on the BBC it was a very famous slot that you know Lulu had Cliff Richard had one, I think it was somebody else. I mean, there was always that slot, that sort of light entertainment slot that was very big. So actually, Dougie Squires was one. Actually, Nigel Lithgow was also one of the most famous choreographers that went on to be the producer of all of the Simon Cowell stuff, I think it's all of that. Nigel Lithgow is a much bigger name than he was then, but he was doing Dougie's job. So you imagine the light Life I'd led up to then was very quiet, off the old Kent Road and going to school and back and school and back. Then suddenly it's at the Albert Hall with all this glamour and glitter and making this film and everything. At that point I just thought... And also the whole team. But why didn't you say, I'm going to go into filmmaking and be Spielberg or something? Why head? Well, do you know what? Or did you think? No, with working class kids, you don't have the contacts for that sort of thing or the knowledge. You know, so much of it is about connections that we had no connections. No, but then I'm thinking, how did Michael Caine, and he was in The Elephant and the Castle as well, how did he kind of... Yeah, it happens for some. I mean, the 60s did kind of set a... a sort of a slight precedent for, you know, being able to succeed. But yeah, no, I get it. You're right. I mean, how would you, where would you start? Where would I start? Not Mr. Hopkins, that's for sure. So that's when I thought, you know what? I'm not going to university. I'll just go into work. And I remember speaking to you- With Norma or Dad or... Sorry? This business of not going to university. Did you discuss this with Norma or Dad? Well, I discussed it with you in your Skoda on the way to Northance for a weekend where I said, and you went, oh... Oh, yeah. And then when we were at John's, his big house up in Hampstead, she said to John, and he thought it wasn't, he wondered whether two brothers being in the salon was a good idea. He didn't say no. Right. So what made him change his mind then? Didn't have any juniors, probably. Exactly. So I'd finished. I thought, this is where I stopped doing the work for exams. I just thought, okay, that's what I'm going to do. And I finished. That's a pretty major decision. Yeah. To get all those A-levels and then actually not. Yeah, but, you know, it's at the end of the day. Yeah. it's a bit like now, now they would call it university, but we have people come from university and come back into hairdressing. You know, we have people that decide that they want to do something with their hands. That's creative. Yeah. And having a degree isn't necessarily going to stop them. No, I mean, I get all that, but for a 16 year old or 17, what, no, how are you? 17, 17, 17 year old. It was quite a, a momentous decision to have studied all that time and do very well. I understand. I mean, Your A-levels were pretty decent. The fact that they were A-levels was pretty decent. Not by the time I took them, but the O-levels were good. Okay, fine. I remember finishing school at the end of June. thinking I'm going to have a couple of months off. Right. And then, of course, I get the call on, like, the 1st of July. Right. Because you had no juniors. And it was like, you're starting on Monday. I went, hang on a minute, I was going to have a summer off. How funny. Starting Monday. And they'd also roped in Lulu's younger brother. Gordon. To start the same day. Oh, yeah, that lasted well. So I think he lasted a week. A week. But I loved it from day one. And you know what? It's interesting you say that because what would it have been that you loved about it? Probably not great things necessarily. There wasn't one day when I thought, oh, is this really what I want to do? That's interesting, isn't it? It just caught me from day one. Yeah. Yeah, and me too. Let's wrap it there and we can pick up on that subject in the next episode. Okay, cool. Sounds exciting.